Kenichiro Mogi's views on qualia and artificial consciousness: Anyone who says the human mind can be easily transferred to a robot is a "fake".
//Summary - Level-C2//
Kenichiro Mogi, a neuroscientist, discusses in his book "Qualia and Artificial Consciousness" that despite advancements in AI, achieving human-like consciousness in machines is unfeasible with current technology. He critiques simplistic assumptions about consciousness transfer to machines and highlights the need for new methodologies, possibly new mathematics, to truly understand consciousness. Mogi's work also merges biological phenomena with philosophical insights.
1)
"Qualia and Artificial Consciousness", written by neuroscientist Kenichiro Mogi and based on trends in his artificial intelligence research, has been a hot topic regarding qualia (subjective texture in consciousness), his area of expertise.
Mr Mogi states, No matter how much we develop today's artificial intelligence, it will never have consciousness like humans. He talks about the issue of "consciousness" he deals with in his new book and the value of books he feels during the coronavirus pandemic.
2)
Pursuing the "origin of species" for the science of consciousness:
- Mr Mogi, what is your impression that so many people are interested in the subject of "consciousness" these days?
Mogi: The average person comes to the subject of consciousness through mindfulness, flow, and the zone. My interests include "GAFA also uses mindfulness to promote creativity" and "athletes are researching ways to flow and get into the zone."
But for neuroscientists like me, all these problems are the phenomenology of consciousness, the science of consciousness itself.
3)
Then some get into it because of the question I wrote in "Qualia and Artificial Consciousness": "If artificial intelligence continues to develop, will artificial consciousness become possible?"
Of course, there are cases where people become interested in "What is consciousness?" when they encounter claims such as transhumanism, posthumanism, and the idea that mind uploading, transferring brain data along with consciousness to a computer, is possible.
4)
--Are discussions about artificial consciousness, as this book covers, gaining momentum worldwide?
Mogi: It's fascinating. This book was written mainly based on discussions in English-speaking countries, so I think reading it will give you a sense of the atmosphere.
Radical claims have been made overseas, such as "If we look at the state in which mind uploading has been realised, the human brain is nothing more than a source for providing materials."
This story is about how their visions of future society and their views of humanity have been completely blown away.
5)
People who say, "Consciousness can be achieved by transferring brain data to a computer; the human mind can be easily transferred to a robot," are lying.
Elon Musk is fascinating, and I like him, but he's on the fence about this. People often say, "If we create an interface that connects the brain and the computer, we won't have to study anymore."
6)
--Consciousness cannot be created no matter how much we advance the technology used in current AI; in fact, consciousness cannot be created unless a completely different research method emerges that does not rely on current statistical methods.
Qualia and Artificial Consciousness' argues that solving the mystery of "qualia and artificial consciousness" is impossible. Mr Mogi, do you think there is a possibility that an entirely new kind of mathematics will emerge that can deal with consciousness?
7)
Mogi: In the past, for example, there were some theories of the universe that many contemporary mathematicians could not understand. Perhaps if we could do the mathematics of qualia, the current mathematics would be useless, and it would be a completely new mathematics.
8)
My greatest ambition in life is to reach Darwin's position. The Origin of Species is a groundbreaking book that explains biological evolution through natural selection in a way non-experts can understand.
However, when the book was first published, it was only a hypothesis, and it wasn't until about 100 years later, with the discovery of DNA's structure, that we learned how living organisms evolve. But "Origin of Species" has already been shown in a general way.
9)
Similarly, although I don't think we can develop the mathematics of consciousness now, we can understand arguments such as "Why does consciousness reside in the physical brain?" and "Why is there free will?" It may be possible to show a framework for this. That's what I'm aiming for.
10)
The science of consciousness is like chess or shogi. We point to the king of consciousness. Bergson's "pure memory" discussion in this book is like a rook if you compare it to shogi pieces. But you can't defeat the king with rooks alone; you have to prepare different kinds of pieces to attack. I feel like I have more pieces than before, but I feel like I'm still on my way.
11)
--Mr. Mogi, do you pay attention to any people or organisations concerned about consciousness research?
Mogi: Christoph Koch has moved to the Allen Institute, which Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen founded, and the work that Koch and the Allen Institute are doing is interesting.
Koch was a co-researcher with Francis Crick, who initially announced that DNA has a double helix structure and has written papers on consciousness.
The Allen Institute uses big data to detail map gene expression in the brain. Artificial intelligence researchers are often not interested in the brain. Still, as I wrote in the book, consciousness is a biological phenomenon and a life science, so maybe we can learn something from gene expression.
12)
--In your book, you are criticised for saying that "artificial intelligence research ignores the limits of physicality". What do you think about current robotics research?
Mogi: Embodiment, along with consciousness, remains a severe challenge in AI research, and I have been discussing this with robot and AI researchers for about 20 years.
Researchers are concerned about embodiment from the point of view of "how can we make robots and AI have common sense?"
For example, if you try to get a robot to do nursing care, the current state of AI might cause it to do something extraordinary. So, how do we give it the common sense that humans have?
As I understand it, robotics research is pursuing something where common sense emerges through physicality without the need for complex calculations. We want to see if Boston Dynamics and autonomous driving technology can make a breakthrough in this area.
13)
The mystery of Bergson's "pure memory" solved
--About a quarter of a century has passed since you started researching qualia. What has been your most significant discovery during this time?
Mogi: I think of the "principle of interaction simultaneity" and "Mach's principle", which I wrote about in the book "Brain and Qualia". It's difficult to explain, so if you're interested, please read the book.
14)
From a mundane perspective, however, we have come to understand more precisely the structure of consciousness and ideas about time and consciousness, and a map has been created.
Benjamin Libet's famous experiment says, "When a person tries to do something, his brain is already active before he is aware of it. I think it's progress that we've come to understand this."
15)
--Did you notice anything or develop any hypotheses while writing this book?
Mogi: In this book, I could clarify Bergson's "pure memory," which I thought was a mysterious claim for many years. Hideo Kobayashi worked on Bergson's "Matter and Memory" for five years and wrote an essay called "Impressions" but failed.
However, Hideo Kobayashi said that Bergson thought, "Memory does not remain in the brain"; Memory remains without the brain, and it is a trigger to bring it out. That's an extraordinary thing to say.
This paved the way to understanding Bergson. But this book does not explain everything. Because if you write down the details, it will be ripped off before you can turn it into an academic paper. But inside, I understood. This is important in my life.
16)
-- Mr Mogi is an avid reader and listener of Hideo Kobayashi's lectures.
Mogi: Interestingly, Hideo Kobayashi paid attention to "matter and memory", and Bergson is the only consciousness researcher to receive a Nobel Prize. It's a literary prize.
17)
--In "Qualia and Artificial Consciousness", you refer to phenomenology and Bergson, but are there any recent philosophical trends that interest you?
Mogi: Of course, it's Marcus Gabriel. Interesting philosophical concepts, such as Bergson's "pure memory," often make us intuitively feel that "there is something important here," but we do not immediately know what it is.
Marcus Gabriel's assertion that "all things exist, but the world does not" was shocking. That's saying something pretty important. However, even after reading his books, I feel that even though he has grasped something, he has not yet been able to fully express its meaning in words.
18)
Going back a bit, the most significant discovery I made while writing this book was that ``writing a book is fun''.
I've always written new stories or compiled serialised stories into books, so it's been 16 years since I've written a book on the pure science of consciousness, apart from novels.
Because of the coronavirus, I went to Yamagata at the end of March and have been in Tokyo ever since, so I could write this because I had time.
19)
I wondered how it would be received, but I was happy to see this book received a surprisingly enthusiastic response from younger readers, such as high school students.
This made me think, "Wow, everyone is interested in consciousness." Looking at the reactions, the message was clear. I thought the world was not something I had given up on.
20)
What is the value of stories, science fiction and books?
--"Qualia and Artificial Consciousness" has a story-like prologue and epilogue, and the whole flow is designed to keep you interested.
21)
Mogi: At first, I thought it would be a difficult book. Then, the editor in charge gave me the nail in the coffin: "Mogi-san, your target is at least 50,000 copies."
Well, that may be a joke, but I've read many English books about consciousness and artificial intelligence, and I feel that everyone here, even top-class academics, value storytelling.
In Japan, there is a tendency that "the more difficult the books written by scientists, the better", but this book is based on the English popular science tradition of "writing in an easy-to-understand way without sacrificing level". That's why I wanted to write it.
22)
By the way, the fact that the story has a prologue and an epilogue is a tribute to Roger Penrose and a way of not letting the reader down just because it's an epilogue.
I also read a lot on the Internet, but there are some things you can do to read an online book. You can control the story from start to finish. I discovered again that books are an exciting medium.
23)
--Do you desire to write science fiction related to your field?
Mogi: I'm writing SF now but can't finish it. But I guess we'll have to compete there. One of my ambitions is to write the original story for a Hollywood film.
24)
Like "Three Bodies," Chinese science fiction has been interesting lately. Haneko Takayama, the author of "Shuri's Horse," which recently won the Akutagawa Prize, also writes science fiction.
Sakyo Komatsu has recently been re-evaluated, and many of the original works of Hollywood films are science fiction. I feel it's getting more attention as a genre. Science fiction plays a vital role in helping us understand reality.
Still, when reality becomes serious, people tend to read Sakyo Komatsu's "The Day of the Resurrection" or Camus' "The Plague". Your desire to read good science fiction is growing.
25)
--Mr. Mogi, how do you see the present time?
Mogi: There has never been a more exciting time in the sense that uncertainty has increased, and many things have come to light that conventional wisdom cannot deal with. Probably a lot more will happen in the next ten years.
26)
--What do you think is the value of books under such circumstances?
Mogi: I also post book reviews on YouTube, and the reviews are surprisingly good. People who are unsatisfied with the information on the Internet come to see the show. This is because the Internet reads information on the Internet, so you cannot differentiate between the Internet by that alone.
People seek information in books because they want to go deeper to make a difference. So please read my book and make a difference.
Kenichiro Mogi's views on qualia and artificial consciousness: Anyone who says the human mind can be easily transferred to a robot is a "fake".
https://realsound.jp/book/2020/09/post-621629.html
[Our will has already been decided a few seconds ago] Brain researcher Kenichiro Mogi / The purpose of his main book Qualia and Artificial Consciousness / The limits of generative AI and the potential of humans / Do humans have free will?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCkBTi6_x8s
